Curse

Usurp · Mar 12, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I read this article...and was amazed at how mistaken this guy is. He basically criticizes D&D and Gygax for not having any merit. Check it out.

Link: http://www.slate.com/id/2186203/?GT1=38001

Here was my response:

The author of this article is painfully unqualified to report on such matters. The fact is, the world of D&D provides a basis from which to experience fantastic adventures while communing with friends and strangers. It is up to the individual, and group, to make the game what it is. You might as well claim that a blank piece of paper is dull and drab after you have marked it with your creation.

Not only does the author miss the entire point and essence of D&D, which is purely creative and only as violent and mindless as those who are participating, but he also failed to adequately research the topic. One important aspect of the D&D line is the series of books based upon the game. Both Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms lands have numbers of rich and well-written series set in their lands. Dragonlance, one of the original D&D worlds, itself offers a number of best-sellers focused on the adventures of rich characters who are engaged in far more than hack and slash violence. D&D is about life, friendship, death, love, hate, and all of the other themes that humans experience and are drawn to.

It is an obvious fact that online and video RPGs have taken over the genre, but this is more of a comment about how society has changed than it is about any inherent flaws in Gygax's creation. What it boils down to is that people have become less social in general, and that video-based games fit well into our current life-style. It is much more convenient to sit down in front of a monitor and log-in to a game where you are instantly connected (virtually) to millions of other players, than it is coordinate and meet with a group in person. How this logic escaped the author is beyond me...it seems so very obvious.

Finally, even the current-day MMORPGs (WoW, Guild Wars, etc.) are much more than violent endeavors of mindless monster-slaying. These games are rich in lore and adventure, and, much like life itself, are what you make of them. The author of this piece should heed this lesson, and be careful not to project his lack of creativity onto that which he does not understand or appreciate. It may also help to know something about that which you are reporting on in the future and form your opinions from facts and knowledge rather than ignorance.

To the author...you fail at life.

To G.G....thank you for the legacy and rest in peace.

Yang Whirlwind · Mar 12, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

We do owe a lot of gratitude to the people who, by creating D&D, also created pen&paper roleplaing! All this being said: D&D sucks.

It is simply put not a very good system. Unlike several of the systems that came after, it does not really support roleplaying as much as dice rolling.

Inde · Mar 12, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I saw that article just this morning as well.

Sleeper Service · Mar 12, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

dude you missed the opportunity of saying "To G.G...GG".

aw heck ill say it,

GG G.G.

Usurp · Mar 12, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

We do owe a lot of gratitude to the people who, by creating D&D, also created pen&paper roleplaing! All this being said: D&D sucks.

It is simply put not a very good system. Unlike several of the systems that came after, it does not really support roleplaying as much as dice rolling.

I will reassert the fact that D&D adventures are as rich and exciting as you make them. We had some great times playing D&D back in the day. Also, just check out the Dragonlance book series to see how creative the environment can be.

I admit that I haven't played D&D in nearly 15 years...but this is not because of any detriment of the system, it is because of the evolution of how I/we live.

Shakti · Mar 12, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usurp

I will reassert the fact that D&D adventures are as rich and exciting as you make them. We had some great times playing D&D back in the day. Also, just check out the Dragonlance book series to see how creative the environment can be.

I admit that I haven't played D&D in nearly 15 years...but this is not because of any detriment of the system, it is because of the evolution of how I/we live.

I have to agree with Usurp. I was that rare breed of gamer back in the day (a GIRL gamer?!? trust me, back then it was strange. Little skiny punk ass purple haired gamer chick...threw many gamer groups for a loop lemme tell ya

)

Games were as fun and imaginative as the DM. Period. When we got a crap hack and slasher DM, the game sucked, and personally, I bowed out. When the DM could tell a story though...good times.

Was D&D the best system in it's genre? Is the very first of anything ever able to remain the best? Rarely. Those following are able to refine ideas/improve ideas and see what worked and didn't.

GG was still a pioneer and should be remembered and honored as such. We'd be missing alot of things we enjoy if he hadn't been sitting around back in 1975 and said

"Y'know...it's be so cool if..."

Thanks Gary, for some damn great times.

Ryu_ookami · Mar 12, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Sofge

If the multiplayer online game World of Warcraft is the direct descendant of D&D,

Since when, D+D at the time was enjoyable for what it was. It was about a group of friends meeting up and playing in a world populated entirely by their imagination and possible a few pieces of cardboard and a few figures. WoW is more about a bunch of people meeting up and stabbing each other in the back as many times as possible in a polyagonic world of badly designed graphics.

I'm not sure if Polyagonic is a word but if its not it should be

**cosyfiep** · Mar 12, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

man d&d was the first game this FEMALE gamer played as well....and it gets better---I was a GM too....
ah, I miss the good ole days

granted I moved on to gurps for quite a few years, but without d&d gurps probably would NOT have ever been.....if not for the pioneering of d&d many of the roleplaying games, heck even computer type games, would NEVER have been.
You can decide for yourself if you like or dislike d&d but it made headway into a huge genre that tons and tons of people enjoy.

again a big THANKS to Gary, he will be missed.

Racthoh · Mar 12, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

That author is a moron. He has no arguments to support his article, and only attempts to take a stab at the experience point system which fails entirely.

Quote:

A good role-playing game provides the framework for a unique kind of narrative, a collaborative thought experiment crossed with improvisational theater. But D&D, particularly the first edition that Gygax co-wrote in 1975, makes this sort of creative play an afterthought.

He had a bad DM if he ever played...

Quote:

So while it's one player's job—the so-called Dungeon Master—to come up with the plot for each gaming session and play the parts of the various enemies and supporting characters, in practice that putative storyteller merely referees one imagined slaughter after another.

... well there you go. He had a bad DM.

Also:

Quote:

The problem is most apparent in one of Gygax's central (and celebrated) innovations: "experience points."

I would like to see this asshat come up with a better system, or show me another successful game (in the genre) that doesn't use some kind of experience point system as the backbone of developing characters in a video game. It's a system that works very well. These days it seems like most games have quests that you can do that also reward experience points. But really, how many people enjoyed all of those Fed-ex quests in Factions? Really gripping, mmersive gameplay there. Mapping from outpost to outpost takes a lot out of me. Please, give me a break.

Yang Whirlwind · Mar 12, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usurp

I will reassert the fact that D&D adventures are as rich and exciting as you make them. We had some great times playing D&D back in the day. Also, just check out the Dragonlance book series to see how creative the environment can be.

I admit that I haven't played D&D in nearly 15 years...but this is not because of any detriment of the system, it is because of the evolution of how I/we live.

Why do people always defend D&D saying that it's as good as you make it? So is every other role playing system ever created!
My point is that it doesn't support creative role playing nowhere near as well as some of the other systems do!
I does however support dice rolling in a supreme fashion!
Example: character generation - races, classes etc. makes for some rather interesting characters - if you do not mind that they become weaker than their optimal counterparts.
One of my friends keep telling me about the adventures of his Dwarven Bard! Lots of laughs as he can't do much!
While this can be said to allow for creative character generation - it doesn't really support it much!

And I can add that I've read both Dragonlance Cronicles (all 4) and Legends (all 4) several times! Very good reading!

Quote:

So while it's one player's job—the so-called Dungeon Master—to come up with the plot for each gaming session and play the parts of the various enemies and supporting characters, in practice that putative storyteller merely referees one imagined slaughter after another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

... well there you go. He had a bad DM.

Yup - clear as day!

Usurp · Mar 13, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Why do people always defend D&D saying that it's as good as you make it? So is every other role playing system ever created!
My point is that it doesn't support creative role playing nowhere near as well as some of the other systems do!
I does however support dice rolling in a supreme fashion!
Example: character generation - races, classes etc. makes for some rather interesting characters - if you do not mind that they become weaker than their optimal counterparts.
One of my friends keep telling me about the adventures of his Dwarven Bard! Lots of laughs as he can't do much!
While this can be said to allow for creative character generation - it doesn't really support it much!

And I can add that I've read both Dragonlance Cronicles (all 4) and Legends (all 4) several times! Very good reading!

Yup - clear as day!

This is a pretty fair argument...but it seems to be a quite subjective analysis. While you may feel that other systems are better at "supporting" creative role-playing...others have had different experiences.

Your position is analogous to someone trying to convince another person that the band you like is better than another, when it is actually a matter of taste.

My point is that D&D has all of the potential in the world to be an intensely creative endeavor...as proven by the rich texts spawned from the very role-playing adventures themselves. Rolling a character during creation, to determine hits, and other outcomes is just part of the game...and didn't interfere with the flow or creativity for many of us.

Remember, Raistlin was a paper character before he became the biggest baddest wizard to ever have walked Krynn. It just took a creative mind to bridge the gap and create the legend.

Life is what you make it...in all of its aspects and endeavors.

Yang Whirlwind · Mar 13, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usurp

This is a pretty fair argument...but it seems to be a quite subjective analysis. While you may feel that other systems are better at "supporting" creative role-playing...others have had different experiences.

Your position is analogous to someone trying to convince another person that the band you like is better than another, when it is actually a matter of taste.

My point is that D&D has all of the potential in the world to be an intensely creative endeavor...as proven by the rich texts spawned from the very role-playing adventures themselves. Rolling a character during creation, to determine hits, and other outcomes is just part of the game...and didn't interfere with the flow or creativity for many of us.

Remember, Raistlin was a paper character before he became the biggest baddest wizard to ever have walked Krynn. It just took a creative mind to bridge the gap and create the legend.

Life is what you make it...in all of its aspects and endeavors.

All very true! But unlike our sorry friend discussed at the start of the thread, I never claimed to be objective! I did however try to explain my personal beliefs with logic attached (I hope) to my claims!
I enjoyed playing D&D back when it was Advanced (sounds to difficult to modern teenagers - that's why they removed the term

). But after having tried many other systems since then, I find the system to be too simplistic. The need to "invent" rules to cover gaps took up more and more time until I simply quit trying to make it work for me.

Personally I like the Earthdawn system better for Fantasy,- but I realise it has some of the same flaws as D&D. In the end it's all really a matter of personal taste.

I know a person who gave us much has just died and all feeel like paying homage. I just felt people were over doing it,- defending every work he ever wrote!